Fahrenheit and Fahrenhype 9/11

on Sep 15, 2004

Brittney Spears has said in interviews that she supports Bush.

And since she sold so many CDs, we should all follow what she says, right? After all, because F9/11 making money and winning awards somehow gives Moore credibility.

47

Chemicalkinetics

on Sep 15, 2004

ShoZan,

You seem very smart and very knowledgable. I serious don't see how anyone can agree with Michael Moore. It is one thing to disagree with the war and Bush policy. It is another thing to like a liar. The guy has no point. He randomly attack people. Look. It is easy to attack people. It is difficult to take a stand. Michael has no stand. In his film, he implies Bush's decision to attack Iraq has make our Afghanistan effect weak and possibly missed the chance of capturing bin Laden -- our real threat. Hey, Michael! Didn't you said the Afghan War is unjustified and bin Laden is innocent? So why do you care when Bush missed his chance to capture an innocent bin Laden? Shouldn't you celebrate that?

Moore said that Blacks are over-represented in the Army and are dying for whites. Really? Michael, aren't you the one who said that if there would have more blacks on the planes on 9/11, the blacks would have overpowered the terrorists and saved the wimpy whites?

Link

So Michael if you thinks blacks are better fighters, why would you not want more blacks in the army? Why are you against blacks in the army, but for more blacks on hickjacked planes.

ShoZan, if you have a chance, please read an old article by Chris Hitchens. Chris wrote for The Nation, a very liberal guy, but even he can't stand Moore's inconsistency.

Link

48

kingbee

on Sep 15, 2004

than see for the REAL truth for what it is

since when did dick morris and ann coulter stop telling the fake truth? (im pretty sure mayor coch is familiar with the truth--if not the REAL truth--cuz he used to hold a very important position: people's court judge)

referring to the REAL truth always puts me on my guard. like when someone says, okay you want the real truth? well what's the other choice? the half-real truth?

im willing to bet you any reasonable sum of money that farenhype 911 which opens on 10/5/2004 will be available for 99c at the 99c store no later than march 5, 2005...right on the same shelf as the books that seemed like such a good idea til they were printed and on the new books racks....like 'lyle menendez: in his own words' and oj simpson's 'let me tell you' .

49

ShoZan

on Sep 15, 2004

have had 10 friends who were in the Military. None were ever put in harms way. 9 were inlisted, and 1 was a career Army man. Before he retired, he spent time on a ship,
but most of the time at a desk. He never saw combat , as did none of the others.

Still think he's a hero ? He ( and they don't ) . They took a job for an education , and one took a job to retire as an Army man. While I appreciate that they worked at a job for 4
to 6 years, or 25 years, they are not heroes. They simply signed up for a job. All of them are Gay. Still think they are heroes?

Yes because the signed up for military service, whether they saw combat or not, they signed up and that constitutes a hero in my book. As for being Gay, I have nothing wrong with that, should I, apparently you think I should. If I did I would hate my Uncle (which yes I know it's a Puerto Rican Stereotype) but I don't I love my uncle (not in that way sick-Os) even though he is gay.

A Great American once said "... ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

I also count National Service Program (i.e. Peace Corp and others) people because they signed up and volunteered their service to the country, also the FBI, CIA, and NSA, despite some problems I have with their methods, they still serve this country, I do not count people in Congress because the are politicians, I do count Presidents because that is no cake walk of a job there period, I do not count Supreme Court Justices because it may be unconstitutional

One I don't count Mikey as being a Hero for these facts:
A. He never attempted (i.e. tried but was disqualified medically) or ever signed up for a National Service Program, but instead serves himself and asks what his country can do for him, sorry but documentaries don't count, no ifs ands or buts about it.
B. Re-read A.
C. He was never immediate family of someone who was in a National Service Program, because being a wife or husband of a Military soldier still counts as a Military service, ask any spouse of a military soldier and you will understand why if you can accept information from someone other than yourself and Mikey.
D. With none of the above on his side, apparently I see no reason why he could ever be hero in my eyes, because he cares only for himself, and not for his country despite his documentaries, since when does a film star or director become a Hero, never that's when.
E. All Previous Points Again.

I always pray for peace, so that no more of our people ( and the Country we are
at war with 's people ) will die.

What about the people who do die in the United States, i.e. the homeless, those in Car Wrecks, Police Officers killed by Careless Drivers on the Highways or town roads, what about those who are dieing of hunger, or even the ones who died in and underneath the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon as well. So quickly do we forget the rest of the people in America who are dieing to embrace only one viewpoint and so glaringly miss the entire picture. Death is a reality, all things die, but yet only those who die in wars are under your consideration. What about the innocents who die at the hands of Dictator, or the innocents who die because of a bombing done because inspectors were kicked out and someone needed to take people of his impulsive indiscretions.

Marines as well as my experience from my Army tells me that as a soldier I serve my country, I serve my Army, I serve to Defend the United States,(when ever somebody swears in the Military or Presidency it's there I swear to Defend the United States bit), and if needed I would have died for my country, and I will still die for my country even if it's because I crashed a plane to stop Terrorists from crashing it into a building (the Fourth Airplane that some people forget about, those American Civilians served their Country by crashing that plane to stop the Terrorist from ramming it into some building).

Would you or could you make that sacrifice of giving your life for your country?

If you can't than you need to do some serious introspection and realize that you have fundamental problems in yourself that needs to be addressed before you cause irreparable Psychological damage to yourself. It may be a big leap of faith, but it is one that should be something that one does not need to time to ponder, it is either a yes or no, something you would do unquestioningly, and that is patriotism, true patriotism, not wishy-washy poser patriotism.

Despite my love for the good ole US of A, my goal in life is to teach English Abroad, and hopefully work and live in Japan, because I love the culture and the people, and the fact that even if I leave the USA, USA will always be in my heart, and those who leave the USA with hate for the country are unpatriotic, ungrateful people who should have been born in a Third World so that they can realize that despite some shortcomings America is a great place to be.

As for being a Moderate, I can only ask that you must hang out with a crowd that is so far off the map that to them you seem moderate, for you are not a moderate, Moderate are a balance between Conservative and Liberal Views, in either party, so you can not be a moderate for there is no other view than a liberal extremist view with you, and that is very disturbing.

As for you delivery of answers it seems that no one can have a different view than you, and to do so is just blasphemy to you. Instead having an intelligent debate you blast off with every answer, trying to hammer home your correctness with every answer, and that seems to show an underlining meaning that deep down there is something going off deep inside you that is saying you are wrong. Or it could be the fact that being so defensive of everything could mean that you must support your side because you have tried so hard to believe it that any truth against it must be attacked at all costs to prevent from being shown how wrong that view is.

Work on that delivery, to be so defensive as your answers are given elude to the fact that you are in the wrong.

I think Sigmund Freud might have had a nice study with you, but than again if Freud checked me out he would run screaming

So , since Bush is no war hero , and Kerry is , I assume you'll vote for Kerry?

I personally researched into this subject before commenting on it, and I can tell you George W. Bush tried not once but twice to get into the Palace Alert Program (you can find the info yourself). The Palace Alert program took National Guard Pilots from the States and sent them to Vietnam, but Bush was not accepted both times for not having the minimum flight time requirement of 750 hours (which is a lot for NG Pilots with as little years as he had), Bush also learned how to fly the F-102(?) which was the plane being used in Vietnam at the time. Sounds to me if Bush was trying so hard to avoid Vietnam he should not tried twice to get into the Palace Alert System.

Bush served in the Military he is a Hero, and so did Kerry.

As for Kerry, because his Battle Buddies do not support him neither will I, and if that is not enough, he personally contributed (for political gain mainly) to the atmosphere of HATRED for United States Military Soldiers, which my Uncle, my Close Friends, and my Family's Friends had to return to, when coming back from Vietnam, not to the mention the number of Soldiers who listened to those lies and were so downtrodden that they committed suicide. He may have gotten the Bronze Medal with V Device, and Silver Star with V Device, but wait the second medal does not exist.
A Silver Medal is a medal awarded for Valor, the V device is awarded for Valor, a Silver Star with V Device was never awarded period, because that is redundant, only Silver Stars are given. Kerry condemned an Admiral who had that medal, that Admiral committed suicide, and Kerry said because of that medal it was enough to question the Admiral's leadership abilities.

Kerry may have done a good service in Vietnam, but that was tarnished by his KNOWING BETTER betrayal of the Military, no matter what the military does, only Military try Military, to get out of service and lie about the Military is wrong completely and is like spitting on the graves on every single soldier who has ever fought or died for this country from Revolutionary War to Present.

Kerry does not have the support of his Battle Buddies (term military uses for those who you serve directly with), and that just shows that his leadership is questionable. I can tell you that my former CO,

, First Sergeant, Drill Sergeants, and Battle Buddies would support me, all of them.

As for who I am voting for, I am voting for Badrnik, simply because he wants to decrease the Government, both Reps and Dems want to increase it, as well as securing our borders better, after all 3 Million are expected to come through the US Mexican Border alone, and not all of them are Mexican, if they all were Mexican or South American, I would have no problems with it, but some are coming from Countries that show open hatred for the US and some could be potential terrorists. Both Kerry and Bush want to make it easier for illegals to get papers for US Citizenship.

ShoZan,

You seem very smart and very knowledgable. I serious don't see how anyone can agree with Michael Moore. It is one thing to disagree with the war and Bush policy. It is another thing to like a liar. The guy has no point. He randomly attack people. Look. It is easy to attack people. It is difficult to take a stand. Michael has no stand. In his film, he implies Bush's decision to attack Iraq has make our Afghanistan effect weak and possibly missed the chance of capturing bin Laden -- our real threat. Hey, Michael! Didn't you said the Afghan War is unjustified and bin Laden is innocent? So why do you care when Bush missed his chance to capture an innocent bin Laden? Shouldn't you celebrate that?

I don't support Mikey; I just want to see Fahrenheit 9/11 and Fahrenhype 9/11 together for posterity.

I did read the article and just from it, I am leery of watching it, because it seems Mikey had no clear coherence in his film, which sounds to me that it is bad directing and plot layout skills, but he gets an award for it, shows how far Hollywood has gone down when awards are given for Good Directing when the directing was bad.

I guess I can be considered smart and knowledgeable, but I will tell you this I believe I do not know what I simply do not know.

Ugh, off to sleep again, got Philosophy class later today and the subject is God, which I being a Gnostic do not share as far as I know any views that a Christian has, so it's going to be interesting to see if there will be a debate on it.

50

kingbee

on Sep 15, 2004

), Bush also learned how to fly the F-102(?) which was the plane being used in Vietnam at the time.

the f-102 delta dagger was used incidentally dring the earlier part of the vietnam conflict. but it was first commissioned in 1951, had a higher than average mishap rate and wasnt really suited for the use in vietnam missions.

The Palace Alert program took National Guard Pilots from the States and sent them to Vietnam, but Bush was not accepted both times for not having the minimum flight time requirement of 750 hours

strange that hed apply twice since he and his friend were told the program was going to be phased out before hed have enough hours

51

kingbee

on Sep 15, 2004

to get out of service and lie about the Military is wrong completely

heres a link Link to the entire unexpurgated, unabridged testimony offered by kerry to the senate committee in 1971.

please read it and identify the lies

52

liveletlive

on Sep 15, 2004

Shozan,

The bottom line is that I responded to your post that was an echo of so many ( predominately Republican) critiques of Michael Moore.

What they usually say is that he's fat. Then , most say he's a liar even though they have never seen the film . Some say he's a liar even though they haven't seen ANY of his films. All they could come up with is that he's fat , same as you .

Then , you felt bad, and changed your post . I must have done something right.

I will probably have to do my own post on Moore - because I have seen all 3 of his films. Farenheit 9/11 is so well put together that it deserves every award it has , and will get. It's funny , it's thought provoking , and it's very touching. You keep judging it and you haven't seen it. Moore could have added so much more , like Bushisms , but he knew what to focus on. We'll have to leave Bushism's to the Presidential blooper videos. Bush has enough for about 7 volumes!

As I've said, Michael Moore's family worked for GM, and he watched as his community crumbled around him ( Roger and Me ). He could have just said nothing , but he didn't.
He went looking for answers. It's a must see. It was a brave thing for him to do.

Funny thing is: Most of the things that people say about Moore ( without seeing the films ) are lies. He loves to be on camera ( not true, he lets others speak for him ).

He twists the words of those he interviews to get what he wants. Untrue. He usually lets the interviewee do the talking , and that's what gets the attention.

Did you know that there was a Hospital patient who's HMO denied an operation for? Michael Moore promised the person that they would get the operation.
And Moore took his cameras with him , and asked why they were denying this person an operation. The patient got the operation.

To those who talk about Bin Laden on these posts as if Moore loves him : Moore documents in 9/11 that the Bush family and the Bin Laden family have been friends
for years, even partners. This is common knowledge that most republicans do not want to bring up. The Taliban visited Bush in Texas.

There's even more for you to see in that film , and his others. Most people view Moore's attempts as a caring, patriotic American . I certainly do - if you even see a glimpse of what Flint Michigan looks like today ( it looks like a war zone ) I'm sure you wouldn't want to live there !

53

ShoZan

on Sep 15, 2004

Chasing George W. Bush and the F-102
A piece that got this started.

What he's like in real life.
by Paul Burka

Link

Includes Documents as well.

54

drmiler

on Sep 15, 2004

Reply #51 By: kingbee - 9/15/2004 6:01:46 AM
to get out of service and lie about the Military is wrong completely

heres a link Link to the entire unexpurgated, unabridged testimony offered by kerry to the senate committee in 1971.

please read it and identify the lies

For starters here's one:

What Was Found and Learned in Vietnam
We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our

It was "no" civil war but rather communism trying to take over!

Here's another:

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of Orientals.

A free-fire zone does NOT mean shooting anything that moves. ALL it means is that you don't have to call and get permission to open fire.
And believe me the list goes on! If you'd like I'll sit down and tear the rest of it apart! BTW I know this has been said before but it bears repeating!
When "loose lips" came home he "gave" the VC AND the NVA exactly what our POWS (under torture) were trying to prevent. Also That meeting in Paris? That my friend was a TREASONOUS act!
He was STILL an officer in the US NAVY at the time.

To quote Stan Lee "Nuff Said!"

55

ShoZan

on Sep 15, 2004

Point:

heres a link Link to the entire unexpurgated, unabridged testimony offered by kerry to the senate committee in 1971.

please read it and identify the lies

Yes I read it.

Counterpoint:
Miami Vietnam veteran attacks Kerry's anti-war statements [LINK] it's from an officer as well.

History of the Vietnam War 101 [LINK] An on-line discussion forum on the history of the war in Vietnam Presented by Edwin Moise, Ph.D

To those who talk about Bin Laden on these posts as if Moore loves him : Moore documents in 9/11 that the Bush family and the Bin Laden family have been friends
for years, even partners. This is common knowledge that most republicans do not want to bring up. The Taliban visited Bush in Texas.

You know I read the information on that, and it was a loose connection through the Carlyle Group, and that also you have to remember the Bin Laden family disowned Usama Bin Laden, which being disowned from a family is a more powerful statement in the Arab world than the US (like being Shunned by the Amish Powerful). Plus the business relationship took place before the American Public or the Business knew how much of threat Usama was, heck we thought we were safe from Terror attacks, but what happened we did not expect. Though after reading 'Bear and the Dragon’ (?) by Tom Clancy, I thought about the possibility of somebody using a plane to destroy an American building, in the case of the book Terrorist crashed a plane into Capitol Hill during a State of the Union Address, was more of threat than I realized because it COULD happen, and it DID happen.

As for saying Mikey is fat, well that's a no-brainer, and I think before he should stick himself in front of camera or spotlight abroad he should lose weight, after Rush Limbaugh did and Rush was big one too. Because he has not attempted to lose weight it makes the American Image of Males look bad, physical mind you, and that I cannot stand for. My Brother may be overweight, but he has told me so, and he is trying to lose the weight, couldn't Mikey try to lose the weight too, after all he has the money so if he wanted to he could be lazy and have sucked out him like the rest of Hollywood. Notice I didn't say he lied or was telling the truth, I just find it offensive that movie stars and directors don't hold their bodies to at least a simple standard, and that is not to be overweight.

As for me commenting on the film before I saw it, I read the artlce that was linked which came from Slate MSN, and the guy who did SEE the movie commented that the movie lacked coherence.

What I said:

I did read the article and just from it, I am leery of watching it, because it seems Mikey had no clear coherence in his film, which sounds to me that it is bad directing and plot layout skills, but he gets an award for it, shows how far Hollywood has gone down when awards are given for Good Directing when the directing was bad.

From that all I was saying that one guy who did SEE the movie reviewed, and it made me leery of watching it, not that I am not going too, just feel a little more apprehensible about watching it, that's all, I did not comment saying that I say it's bad directing. No, I said it sounded to me like it was bad directing, which no matter what kind of movie you do, I abhor bad directing, which is why I seriously hate some movies, but than again if the directing is so bad its funny I like it. Notice I did not say Mikey was a Bad Director, what I did say that the guy who reviewed who did SEE the film said that Mikey was a bad director and should have had more coherence to the film.

What I do like, and feel that myself and others have influenced, is that you have toned down, and are now delivering your arguments better as befitting a grown, sane, and rational adult, this is the nature of debate it should always be sane and rational, not something else, which is why in Washington sometimes they forget that in an effort to bash one another.

As for Bush, the common line is that he is stupid, I don't think that is the case, and here is why I think why.
1. The man graduated from college and has a Bachelor's and Master's Degree.

2. He graduated with honors, and also attended Harvard or Yale (?) either way even if you have the money those schools will not tolerate people with bad grades.

3. Most people judge him as being stupid by looks, by the way he talks, or by his accent, I don't think that is the case, for if we could always say something intelligent there would be no humor in Politics, his accent is Texan (y'all best to not have have problem with that, because I as an Oklahoman has his back on that one, not to mention everybody has accents), and the last his looks, well if we could all look like Matt Damon or Ben Affleck what fun would there be in Politics.

4. They cite his business failings as stupidity, but do they know all the cause and factors of the business failing, and don't forget not everybody who was a President was successful in business, most facts about him being stupid in business are correlational at best, they don't prove that he was the direct cause or look at what factors besides Bush contributed to the Business failing. If everybody could run successful businesses there would be no unemployment ever.

5. I think I covered all the ones used to mark him as stupid, but if there is one I missed I will try to rectify it with a latter post, y'hear.

That's it for me for now.

Getter Done.
ShoZan

56

jesusstayscrunchy

on Sep 15, 2004

I will probably have to do my own post on Moore - because I have seen all 3 of his films.

Michael Moore actually has 4 documentary films out: Roger and Me, The Big One, Bowling for Columbine, and Fahrenheit 9/11 as well as the comedy Canadian Bacon. This, by my count, makes a total of FIVE films, FOUR of which fall into the same documentary style as F 9/11.

The reason I point this out is that we on the left have bad spokespeople. Anybody see Janeane Garofalo try to go up against Sean Hannity a few weeks ago? Your statement of fact -- "three films" -- was incorrect, why should I take the other "facts" you post seriously? Incidentally, I enjoyed Mikey's film, and I hadn't heard of the new answer film "Fahrenhype" but I'll be happy to watch it. I don't want to be another one of these misinformed liberals.

We on the left are always accusing our fellow citizens on the right of being dumb liars. And certainly, there have been dumb lies that have spouted from the right. But the left has been guilty of the same sort of tactics, which pretty much makes me want to puke concerning the whole lot of American politics.

I know it's a quibbling point, but I think it's a symptom of the larger tendency for Americans to be uninformed. A simple look at Mike's site or the Internet Movie Database would have provided a nice fact check for you. And since I've seen all FIVE of these films, perhaps I should be the one to create a Michael Moore post. Hmmm.

I also reccommend "TV Nation" and "The Awful Truth" if you can find them. These were two short-lived TV series that Moore created. Very entertaining.

57

liveletlive

on Sep 15, 2004

Why can't we just accept people for what they are? Even if Moore was skinny , he probably wouldn't be a handsome man , then someone would be saying he's
ugly , like they did to Chelsea Clinton. The Clintons did a better job with Chelsea than the Bush's did with the twins!

I"ll say it again : Moore didn't want to be " a star" - he wanted to get some answers because he cared about his community . He went out - looking the way he did,
a true " Joe user " if there is one , and looked for the answers , which eluded him for a long time. Was he supposed to "get pretty" before he did this?

If a handsome , perfectly fit person did this , it probably wouldn't be the same , and it certainly would seem more " Hollywood " - Moore had to raise the money for
"Roger and Me" himself.

I still think it's funny that Dennis Hastert looks like Moore's big brother . Maybe you should email Hastert and tell him to lose weight because he's bad for the Republicans>

As for Bush - he has already proven that anything can be "bought" by the right people. That's why he had Guard duty. How can someone go to College and be so stupid?

58

messybuu

on Sep 15, 2004

I"ll say it again : Moore didn't want to be " a star" - he wanted to get some answers because he cared about his community . He went out - looking the way he did,

Is that why Moore resorted to editing what people said in a way in which they condemn? Because he wanted to get honest answers and not because he wanted to make money?

As for Bush - he has already proven that anything can be "bought" by the right people. That's why he had Guard duty. How can someone go to College and be so stupid?

I know! He has a Texan accent! What an idiot!

59

jesusstayscrunchy

on Sep 15, 2004

He graduated with honors, and also attended Harvard or Yale

Bush got his undergraduate degree from Yale. He did not graduate with honours. He also holds an MBA from Harvard. I am unaware of his standing in that class. Bush's Yale transcript is available online (I have provided a link), and you can see for yourself the mistake in thinking he graduated with honours from that school

Link

60

Texas Wahine

on Sep 15, 2004

I know! He has a Texan accent! What an idiot!

he he he . . . leave the holy name of Texas out of this!